The Bible [Archive] - The Bowrd Network

dj 2way

10-29-2006, 01:08 AM

da420

10-29-2006, 01:58 AM

The Bible was never meant, or at least never should have been taken literally. It was only a book telling a story about life, and a description of good and evil. More of a "guidline" if you will. I don't blame the bible, but humans ignorance, own self evils, and lack of respect for those that think and act differently as the problem. It's definately not the religion itself, but the people that run the religion.

Im a border line agnostic/deist.

I generally beleive in science, but just don't understand how everything was created. I beleive that we as humans will never know the answer to these questions till we finally kick the pail, and even then, we probably will never know.

dj 2way

10-29-2006, 04:41 AM

Understandin it would be impossible on our level of communication and understandin. The closest we get is science-wise is quantum physics and even with that the deeper you go the more of a mind fuck it ends up. So science and spirituality end up in the same place. Neither has one up on the other. As you said the only good in the bible is its metaphoric sense. Its been exploited by the lowest of the human nature in all of us.

chewy

10-29-2006, 10:42 AM

Like it's already been said, I only see the bible as a "guideline" to life. It has been blown out of proportion, but the same can be said of the Qu'ran surely?

Alien

10-29-2006, 11:07 AM

Whether or not you believe the Bible (Old Testament) is written by man or God, you still have to wonder how moral the world would be if it were never written (or given to man by God).

Think about it. Before the Bible times, and also in certain areas during the Bible times, the order of the world was paganism. This isn't the friendly ouija-board fire-spinning wiccan paganism you hear so much about today, this was proper idol worship. They would tear the limbs off living animals and eat it, so that the animal stays fresh and they can eat another limb the next day...nice 'n fresh. They would perfrom wierd pagan rituals like slaughtering a calf in it's mother's milk.
They would basically get intoxicated all the time (not such a bad thing) and have sex with family members (again...not such a bad thing for some). There were child sacrifices and basically just all-round unpleasantness.

The argument is that without the Bible, man still would have 'evolved' to a morally suitable level. But, if the Bible is the culmination of this moral evolution, then it's effect on the world cannot be ignored, whether or not you believe it was God-given or man-made.

The next time you're feeling a little pissed off that your ethics and conscience are preventing you from fucking your sister, blame the Bible, because in a pagan world it would be your favourite pass-time.

Oh, and if your argument is that people have misinterpreted it, then you're 100% correct in many cases. But, as pointed out above, the Bible served as a moral guidline. If people have made it into some document of hate, then it is the people who are to blame.

If people weren't fighting over the Bible or religion, they'd be fighting over various other documents/traits/differences.
Does Mein Kampf ring any bells?

uk goon

10-29-2006, 12:13 PM

fuck the bible, its boring as fuck and ridiculous

uk goon

10-29-2006, 12:14 PM

and yes i have read it (or made to) when i was a kid

unknown

10-29-2006, 12:59 PM

The argument is that without the Bible, man still would have 'evolved' to a morally suitable level.

who says we have??

and also....what does meine kampf have to do with this subject?

and although paganism was rife when you mentioned do you seriously believe that ALL were pagans. I think along the lines of there were allways sensible people who didn't need to conform to a religion or belief system to give there life direction and meaning. These people usually are the ones who keep there heads down and arent trying to make everyone elses life shit. I aint anti anything but i just dont think people put enough faith in the normal people who have ALWAYS existed on this planet. The meek even!!

1

Revenant

10-29-2006, 02:21 PM

The Bibles only good point was setting out a system for moral laws so mankind could start some kind of civilization. It's all antiquated now and should not be taken literally. But superstition is a hard habbit to break.

I do believe in spirituality. But I have no ties to any dogma.

unknown

10-29-2006, 02:25 PM

yeah true but some of those moral laws have been questioned and changed now!

Revenant

10-29-2006, 02:28 PM

But look at how many are still in effect. Islam's treating of women like cattle and the Vaticans stance on Preisthood and birth control just to name a few.

Barbaric.

mindfork

10-29-2006, 02:34 PM

I was watching the History Channel recently and I saw a really interesting program. Apparently they found an Egyptian account of the parting of the Red (Reed) Sea by Moses. It was really interesting because the Egyptians spoke of Moses as a king and the Hebrews as The Evil Ones. They theorized that this event was caused by a sort of earthquake driven tidal wave. They also found the site of the actual event. Apparently the Bible mistranslated Reed Sea into Red Sea. Also interesting is the place where it actually happened is named "God Devours" in Arabic.

Even if you don't believe that God helped the Hebrews by washing out the Egyptians with a huge wall of water, it's cool to think that it actually happened as an act of nature.

uk goon

10-29-2006, 02:47 PM

There are many things in the Bible that seem seriously exaggerated, or highly unlikely, or just too good to be true

Alien

10-29-2006, 02:56 PM

who says we have??

and also....what does meine kampf have to do with this subject?

and although paganism was rife when you mentioned do you seriously believe that ALL were pagans. I think along the lines of there were allways sensible people who didn't need to conform to a religion or belief system to give there life direction and meaning. These people usually are the ones who keep there heads down and arent trying to make everyone elses life shit. I aint anti anything but i just dont think people put enough faith in the normal people who have ALWAYS existed on this planet. The meek even!!

1I'm not saying that we have reached a moral apex, i'm simply stating that it's arguable that we would have any morality if it weren't for the Bible.
Mein Kampf was merely a reference to a literary work that was used as a source of violence... pay attention please.
And in answer to your final question, yes, i do believe the whole world was worshipping idols. Anthropology (a weak subject to say the least) proves that there is even evidence of child sacrifices. And the fact that you call people not conforming to a set of beliefs "sensible" stains your entire argument as you are clearly not open-minded when it comes to religious followers. News flash, not all religious people try to make other people's lives shit.
Besides, what good is a group of so-called 'sensible' moral people keeping to themselves and not trying to create a moral world?
Sitting by idly while immorality is taking place...well, you might as well be committing the immoraltiy.

I don't care if a person believes in the Bible or not, but i do care if they are moral or not, and i strongly believe that our ability to be moral people would be seriously disadvantaged if it wasn't for the Bible setting a guidline.

I was watching the History Channel recently and I saw a really interesting program. Apparently they found an Egyptian account of the parting of the Red (Reed) Sea by Moses. It was really interesting because the Egyptians spoke of Moses as a king and the Hebrews as The Evil Ones. They theorized that this event was caused by a sort of earthquake driven tidal wave. They also found the site of the actual event. Apparently the Bible mistranslated Reed Sea into Red Sea. Also interesting is the place where it actually happened is named "God Devours" in Arabic.

Even if you don't believe that God helped the Hebrews by washing out the Egyptians with a huge wall of water, it's cool to think that it actually happened as an act of nature.It's no secret that the Egytians hated Moses...and the Hebrew people. I would like to see info on that story you're speaking of...it could always be false but regardless it sounds interesting.
And the original Hebrew is true to the translation of the Red Sea as the "Sea of Reeds." It's probably the King James Bible that mistranslated it as the Red Sea... I don't know for sure though.

Talleyrand

10-29-2006, 03:31 PM

Whether we are better off morally with the Bible is highly questioinable. Nietzsche had seen the Bible as representing moral weakness and corruption, the New Testament being worse than the Old Testament.

The Old Testament has a richer history than the New. It contains stories, parables, etc. that Hebrews used to tell to the next generations in order to keep some cohesiveness in their communities. After all, the Hebrews were being constantly invaded, enslaved and dispersed. It was the stories of the Torah that kept Hebrews together as a people despite being diasporic.

The New Testament was written thousands of years later, way after the death of Jesus. God, Satan, angels and various other spirits give it an air of polytheism. There are passages in the Bible where the horror reads like a Stephen King novel. The suffering of the wicked is glorified, the reward to the believer lays in the witnessing of the wicked's punishment.

Say what you want about "pagans" (the word paganes in Latin is akin to "hillbilly" or "rube" and is a derogatory term Christians used for polytheists), they celebrated different virtues than the Jews and Christians. They celebrated strength, hero-worship, revenge and the like. The human race evolved from cave dwellers to civilization under polytheism. Just because the Christians inverted the values of the polytheists does not mean they were more "evolved". It means they were more succesful at winning converts and dominating the map. In fact, it wasn't until Constantine became Roman Emperor that Christianity became more than just another religious cult. He tolerated it, organized the books of the Bible and made it unified. Only after that did Christianity have any claim to survival.

unknown

10-29-2006, 03:38 PM

Mein Kampf was merely a reference to a literary work that was used as a source of violence... pay attention please.
And in answer to your final question, yes, i do believe the whole world was worshipping idols. Anthropology (a weak subject to say the least) proves that there is even evidence of child sacrifices. And the fact that you call people not conforming to a set of beliefs "sensible" stains your entire argument as you are clearly not open-minded when it comes to religious followers. News flash, not all religious people try to make other people's lives shit.
Besides, what good is a group of so-called 'sensible' moral people keeping to themselves and not trying to create a moral world?
Sitting by idly while immorality is taking place...well, you might as well be committing the immoraltiy.

.

i personally never thought that mein kampf was used as a source of violence by OTHERS as it was more a guideline that hitler had for his own vision and was never really taken seriously by the reader because the book was rife with self aggrandization, meandering narrative, and tangled metaphors . That said, it is an incredibly important book but i thought not one that was really too relative to the theme of religious following. i mean some use mein kampf as refference nowadays but it is in a deffinate minority.

just because there was evidence of child sacrafices i dont see how that means that EVERYONE had a part in it. If humans dissapeared from this point now and all evidence of written history was destroyed except for graves of dead people on the planet do you think that if the planet was discovered by another race 50 years later and they inhabit the planet then find for example mass graves in yugoslavia that cos of no written evidence they would prolly summise that we killed 50 peeps put em in a whole for OUR god or cos they werent pagan enough. Or dya think that (as prolly when pagaens were on the planet happened) there was a main fanatical leader with twisted followers who (due to their power in the society) acting out his twisted vision and as in this day and age had people stupid enough to follow the twisted vision. There is society within monkey groups so don't tell me there wasnt before the bible.

and yes "sensible" was a bad word to use but your way off with what you said next!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW.

ALIEN.....
remember this is a thread bout religion so no-one here is gonna be right!! Calling me names like you actually know anything bout me and acting all condescending is makin you look a monkey to me!

Revenant

10-29-2006, 03:41 PM

Say what you want about "pagans" (the word paganes in Latin is akin to "hillbilly"

You no longer have the right to reffer to me as "hillbilly" Mr. Professor man.
From now on it's Pagan.

Alien

10-29-2006, 03:45 PM

Say what you want about "pagans" (the word paganes in Latin is akin to "hillbilly" or "rube" and is a derogatory term Christians used for polytheists), they celebrated different virtues than the Jews and Christians. They celebrated strength, hero-worship, revenge and the like. The human race evolved from cave dwellers to civilization under polytheism. Just because the Christians inverted the values of the polytheists does not mean they were more "evolved". It means they were more succesful at winning converts and dominating the map. In fact, it wasn't until Constantine became Roman Emperor that Christianity became more than just another religious cult. He tolerated it, organized the books of the Bible and made it unified. Only after that did Christianity have any claim to survival.

Even pagans call themselves pagans...maybe it's different over there but pagans here are proud to be pagans and thats just what they're called. But i do agree that referring to pagans is difficult since the pagans of today hardly resemble original paganism at all.

My point wasn't that the pagans didnt have any valid aspects of their culture, my point is that the various laws taught by the Bible were alien to the pagans of those times. Values such as respect for animals, which is one of the Seven Noahide Laws.

Again, my defence of the Bible in no way defends people who misuse it to rally converts, etc. It's is merely a defence of a document (holy or unholy) that paved the way for moral activity and allows us to be more moral than i believe we would be if we were still under the original pagan influence.

And you won't find me defending Christianity. As far as i'm concerned, we probably wouldn't even be having this debate on whether the Bible is good or bad if the Christians hadn't done such a bang-up job of transforming it into a laughable document of blood.

Alien

10-29-2006, 03:52 PM

i personally never thought that mein kampf was used as a source of violence by OTHERS as it was more a guideline that hitler had for his own vision and was never really taken seriously by the reader because the book was rife with self aggrandization, meandering narrative, and tangled metaphors . That said, it is an incredibly important book but i thought not one that was really too relative to the theme of religious following. i mean some use mein kampf as refference nowadays but it is in a deffinate minority.

just because there was evidence of child sacrafices i dont see how that means that EVERYONE had a part in it. If humans dissapeared from this point now and all evidence of written history was destroyed except for graves of dead people on the planet do you think that if the planet was discovered by another race 50 years later and they inhabit the planet then find for example mass graves in yugoslavia that cos of no written evidence they would prolly summise that we killed 50 peeps put em in a whole for OUR god or cos they werent pagan enough. Or dya think that (as prolly when pagaens were on the planet happened) there was a main fanatical leader with twisted followers who (due to their power in the society) acting out his twisted vision and as in this day and age had people stupid enough to follow the twisted vision. There is society within monkey groups so don't tell me there wasnt before the bible.

and yes "sensible" was a bad word to use but your way off with what you said next!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW.

ALIEN.....
remember this is a thread bout religion so no-one here is gonna be right!! Calling me names like you actually know anything bout me and acting all condescending is makin you look a monkey to me!
Number One: I didn't call you names
Number Two: Neo-Nazis read Mein Kampf as a source of their ideology, do they not? ANd i don't care how few people use it as a document of hate, it was merely used to illustrate a point. Maybe it would have been better if i'd used the Qu'ran as an example for my point.
Number Three: I personally (note: PERSONALLY) do believe the world was full of pagans until the Bible times, BUT, you don't need to think that. All you need to do is find me one example of Pagan literature (or art, music, etc.) that tries to promulagate moral living. Can't find any? Okay, how about you find me one item of Non-Pagan (but non-Biblical) literature that tries to spread morality. No again? My point is that regardless of whether the world was fully Pagan or not, it was the Five Books of Moses that codified moral laws and aimed at spreading them to an otherwise "immoral" world.

And i am not arguing with you about religion as you say I am. I couldnt care less about your religious views and i hope you don't care about mine either. This is merely a discussion about the importance of the Bible as a moral work.

You don't have to be a Christian to admire the architecture of a cathedral, or a muslim to enjoy reading islamic literature, or a jew to enjoy kletzmer music...

unknown

10-29-2006, 04:01 PM

you sure bout the last one..lol

Alien

10-29-2006, 04:07 PM

^^haha. I get your point...Islamic literature is hardly my thing.
Bascially just meaning you don't have to be religious or even believe in God to see the importance of the Bible's code of moral laws

unknown

10-29-2006, 04:18 PM

i really regret using the word sensible mayn, i meant fanatical religous people not the millions who actively form a hugely positive part of the human race! my two closest friends are sikh and catholic!!!

Alien

10-29-2006, 04:33 PM

Relax man, you won't find me defending fanatical religious groups.

I just have a lot more respect for people who CHOOSE not to be religious but can accept the good that religions can contribute than for the people who just blindly hate any form of religious life/scripture/practice no matter how beneficial it can be for society.

uk goon

10-29-2006, 04:37 PM

all i know is if someone can have a better life in the belief god will sort them out at the end then good for them the dum fucks, but i cant belive that

Alien

10-29-2006, 05:01 PM

Why are they dumb fucks?
Because they can do something you can't do?

unknown

10-29-2006, 05:32 PM

Talleyrand

10-29-2006, 06:24 PM

Alien

10-29-2006, 06:43 PM

There was "morality" before the Old Testament and Bible, it just was not Judeo-Christian morality. Like I said before, the "pagans" were highly moral in that they believed in virtues of physical strength, revenge, God-worship and the rest. The only question is: Which morality was superior? Are we better off with Judeo-Christian morality than we were with polytheistic/animistic morality? The answer is not so clear-cut.

The pagans had a focus on the "here and now" not found in Judeo-Christian morality. The Bible, if taken as literally as Christian sects take it, stresses rewards in heaven and the afterlife for good living now. However, what becomes stressed in this type of thinking is the hereafter, with the here and now being merely a warm-up for the afterlife. In this way, Judeo-Christianity shares alot with Hinduism and Buddhism (karma and dharma).

As Nietzsche claimed, the great religions turned our animal instincts inwards against ourselves. The pagans gave their animal instincts free reign. In other words, Judeo-Christian morality has made humans ashamed of being human and of unleashing normal human passions upon the rest of the world. We have become more passive, more indolent, and less concerned with what humanity might look like if persisting on this path. Nietzsche saw the virtues of the "pagans" as more life-affirming, whereas Judeo-Christianity he saw as life-denying.

Edit - Carpe' is a pagan redneck
Okay i get what you're saying. We are just gonna have to end up defining 'morality'.
My use of the word 'morals' and 'morality' is purely based on the concepts we accept as moral today, for example: respecting animals, as i mentioned above; no human sacrifices, no incestual relationships, etc.
Obviously to some people these conditions of morailty are superfluous, and others simply choose to ignore them but, with specific regard to the 10 Noahide Laws, the laws of the Bible were dictated in strong contrast to the "pagan" acts of the time.

I can fully understand Neitzsche's idea that the Judeo-Christian laws make people ashamed to be humans, and many people are a perfect example of this, but given the opportunity to experience life with a set of morals that are relatively engrained in society (no killing, stealing, honouring parents, establishing a court system, etc.) i'd much rather live in a post-Biblical society than a pre-Biblical, or "pagan" society.
Again, post-Biblical society doesn't mean a purely-Biblical society, but since humanity is still not fully righteous even after a few thousand years of Biblical morals in the world, imagine where we'd be if those Biblical morals never existed to begin with.

Both you and I can defend "paganism" on certain terms, but the bottom line is that i would rather live in our current society than a society centred around purely physical elements, heavy intoxication, inhumane (a relative term) sacrifical offerings, and immoral (again a relative term) sexual relationships, which as i said earlier is arguably what the world would be like if the Bible was never "invented"

dj 2way

10-29-2006, 07:13 PM

There were plenty of people on earth that lived in pagan times and did not sacrifice, have incest, or any of the other things mentioned. There were monks that strictly gave there lives to spiritual enlightenment and left alot of that shit behind. Just like the things you mention still exist today on the flip the morals existed in the past. Morals weren't an epiphany they existed they just weren't used as a tool in the sense of the bible. I don't automatically trust the world was a pagan hellhold before the bible. Because of course it supports belief in the bible even more so it could be exagerated. But as far as it goes for there bein evil or unmoral things on this earth although more regulated both still exist as they did in the past. The bible and current religion and laws are regulating things but not always for the best.

Alien

10-29-2006, 07:45 PM

^^could you show me info on these monks?
Like what nations they were from, what areas they lived in, and what morals (or code) they lived by?

dj 2way

10-29-2006, 08:25 PM

I used the word monks cause its a present word for what they were. But you should really study ancient kemet and other advanced civilizations from the past. Although viewed upon as heretics and pagans(by christians/catholics) there was very positive advanced civilizations in those times. We all know that war and opposition will always exist though. That whole sacraficial shit only applys to certain gods and civilizations. I know for a fact that there were many deities that didn't require sacrafical rituals. Also the whole Idol worship shit is bunk cause every popular religion does it. Except jews and muslims. But they have deitys wether they call them saints or disciples or whatever. Such pagan rituals and holidays still excist. So don't be fooled. Shits the same excpet more regulated.

Alien

10-29-2006, 08:42 PM

Okay, i'll look into them.
But how does this take any value away from the Bible?
Like i said before, the fact that there might have been moral non-pagans, or even moral pagans before the Bible times doesn't make a difference. The point is that the Bible is still present in society today as a means for a more moral world (whether it actually achieves that these days or not). You can't deny the effect the Bible has had in the shaping of the morals we live by today, regardless of whether other people also just happened to believe in these same morals before the giving of the Bible.

Edit: i don't really see how your examples of Kemet are relevant to this discussion, especially seeing as the trend of Ancient Egyptian slavery and other forms of "immorality" surely shouldn't be accepted as some sort of precedent for modern bahviour, and it certainly isn't seen as "moral" behaviour in modern terms.

dj 2way

10-29-2006, 10:05 PM

kemet was takin over by greeks and it became egypt. Also you gotta read into what I said more. I said even then there was immoral behaviour. Like wars and shit. Im sayin kemet thrived as a moral civilization way before what we know as eqypt today. But they were pagans. Remember history gets twisted for whoevers agenda is in best interest. We have things watered down by catholics and chritians. Thats another point in how the bible is bein used today.

Alien

10-29-2006, 10:18 PM

Yeah i'll have to agree with you on that last comment

unknown

10-29-2006, 10:20 PM

you guys are killin me!!!! ^^^^^+reps for both!!!!

Revenant

11-01-2006, 09:15 PM

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Hells_Truth/hells_truth1.htm

This is all I'm going to say for the moment.

Alien

11-02-2006, 06:27 AM

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Hells_Truth/hells_truth1.htm

This is all I'm going to say for the moment.
hahaha holy shit man, if that's true then i'm certainly going to hell

"Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son"
yup, i'm doomed

Exar Kun

11-03-2006, 03:37 AM

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Hells_Truth/hells_truth1.htm

This is all I'm going to say for the moment.

gotta love the fanatics.

CockDaHammer

11-14-2006, 09:12 PM

http://images.bestwebbuys.com/muze/books/82/0939680882.jpg

i believe in this book
its a good read,lots of interesting facts

unknown

11-14-2006, 09:18 PM

^^^ yeah!!

i believe in this one!!

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/images/n26/n132240.jpg

never trust a mouse!

Revenant

11-14-2006, 09:24 PM

http://images.bestwebbuys.com/muze/books/82/0939680882.jpg

i believe in this book
its a good read,lots of interesting facts

That book started out good, but then it got to the part where a planet visited us every 30 thousand years or some shit.
After that I just had to wipe my ass with it.

And the problem with baptists is that they dont hold them under long enough.

CockDaHammer

11-14-2006, 10:20 PM

That book started out good, but then it got to the part where a planet visited us every 30 thousand years or some shit.
After that I just had to wipe my ass with it.

And the problem with baptists is that they dont hold them under long enough.

than you missed the best part where they were planting human embryos into apes
:lol:

Revenant

12-04-2006, 01:01 AM

The Bible has these kind of idiots as followers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb4UdbA37Lw&eurl

RM_3000

12-04-2006, 01:53 AM

My thoughts on the bible or any other book of worship is its a big form of social engineering. At the heart of the bible I see good. But the bible as a tool for the most part I've seen it used for things most morally senseable people will see as wrong. When one does this they are goin against a persons god. It all comes down to our deepest ego and the power of our belief systems in givin us what we need to stand. Of course most know that this is all a facade in some way shape or form. But we still live in a world where the wrtitten word of the past and the strong will of belief has been tainted in a way. Do you blame the bible which at the heart has good in it or do you blame the evil that has plagued man?

The problem isn't the Bible itself, or even Jesus. The problem is the self-empowering maniacs who utilize the book to justify horrific actions. The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the 500-year war against scientific advancement, etc.

Much of this has to do with authoritarian personalities, which include both the leaders and the followers. Ex-Nixonite John Dean's book, Conservatives Without Conscience, analyzes the authoritarian personality in great detail. With regard to modern day politics, these are basically the religious right wingers who have taken over America and quote Jesus to justify their bigotry and encroaching totalitarianism. You know, the whole "Jesus died (not for my sins) so that I can claim moral superiority and tell you what to do...".

For Europeans on here, I'm talking about the working-class supporters of George Bush. His wealthy supporters are simply in it for the cronyism and tax cuts.

Authoritarianism also manifests itself in very strict fundamentalist religious sects. The best analysis of these nutjobs can be found here:

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/08/cracks-in-wall-part-i-defining.html
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/08/cracks-in-wall-part-ii-listening-to.html
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/08/cracks-in-wall-part-iii-escape-ladders.html
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/08/tunnels-and-bridges-part-i-divide-and.html
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/08/tunnels-and-bridges-part-ii-nothing-to.html
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/08/tunnels-and-bridges-part-iii-bigger.html
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/09/tunnels-and-bridges-part-iv-landing.html
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/09/tunnels-and-bridges-short-detour.html

These blogs were written by an ex-Fundamentalist, and are probably the only legitimate primer for de-conversion of reactionary Christians.

One last reference, that provides an excellent historical perspective on fundamentalism in both Islam and Christianity is a book called The Battle for God by Karen Armstrong.

RM_3000

12-04-2006, 01:56 AM

But look at how many are still in effect. Islam's treating of women like cattle and the Vaticans stance on Preisthood and birth control just to name a few.

The funny thing is that Islam's modern day treatment of women is not really derived from the Koran, and has not been a historical part of mainstream Islam for many centuries. It was more a secular tradition that had its origins in the socio-political structure of the Ottoman empire, which came apart after WWI. The radical Islamists kept this part of the culture, but historically, this filth was not part of Islam.

Unfortunately, its part of it now.